Barbara Sutton is an associate professor in UAlbany's Department of Women's, Gender and Sexuality Studies. She spent the summer of 2018 tracking the abortion-rights movement in Buenos Aires, Argentina.
In August of 2018, Argentina's Senate narrowly defeated a bill to legalize abortion. Barbara Sutton, an associate professor in the Department of Women's, Gender and Sexuality Studies, spent the summer in Buenos, Aires, Argentina, tracking the abortion-rights movement.
On this episode, Sutton shares the remarkable story behind the bill that galvanized activist groups throughout Latin America and set reproductive rights to the top of Argentina's legislative agenda.
The UAlbany News Podcast is hosted and produced by Sarah O'Carroll, a Communications Specialist at the University at Albany, State University of New York, with production assistance by Patrick Dodson and Scott Freedman. Have a comment or question about one of our episodes? You can email us at mediarelations@albany.edu, and you can find us on Twitter @UAlbanyNews.
Sarah O'Carroll:
Welcome to the UAlbany News Podcast. I'm your host, Sarah O'Carroll.
Sarah O'Carroll:
In August, Argentina's senate narrowly defeated the bill to legalize abortion. With me today is Barbara Sutton, an Associate Professor in New Albany's Department of Women's, Gender, and Sexuality Studies. She spent the summer in Buenos Aires, tracking the abortion's rights movement in Argentina.
Sarah O'Carroll:
Barbara, tell us the remarkable story behind the bill that really galvanized activist groups throughout Latin America, and pushed reproductive rights to the top of Argentina's legislative agenda.
Barbara Sutton:
Well thank you Sarah for your interest in this issue. Indeed, it was an eventful summer for me. It was winter actually in Argentina, and I was there from June to August. I was conducting interviews with activists in the movement, and also participating in many of the events that had been taking place.
Barbara Sutton:
And, it seems that this feminist activism has, and also, broader women's and LGBTQ activism, has grown during the years. And this is all part of this remarkable story you're referring to.
Barbara Sutton:
You know, in Argentina, abortion is defined as a crime in the penal code, and it carries up to four years in prison except in the cases of danger to life or health or in cases of rape.
Sarah O'Carroll:
And that's today? That's right now?
Barbara Sutton:
Yeah. That's right now, and you know, this is, what is interesting is that even though it is in the law, what has been demonstrated is that the state has been unsuccessful in enforcing this law. Because each year, hundreds of thousands of abortions take place, illegally, in clandestine situations, and creating dangers to health or life.
Barbara Sutton:
And even in the cases where there's a permission to perform the abortions, it is very difficult to access those legal abortions. And this is partly what the movement has been trying to redress.
Sarah O'Carroll:
Well, can you give us a bit more historical context of where the movement was, say five years ago, which can help explain where we are now in this incredibly momentous time?
Barbara Sutton:
Yeah. So, I think we need perhaps to go a little earlier than five years ago. Because, you know, you cannot understand this movement without also thinking about the context of democracy in Argentina. And especially after years of dictatorship, and the movements that flourished after the democratic transition, among which is the women's movement.
Barbara Sutton:
And for example, in the context of the Encuentro Nacional de Mujeres, these are national women's meetings that take place since 1986. So the transition to democracy was in 1983, and you know, in that context, a lot of different movements flourished.
Barbara Sutton:
The campaign, the national campaign for legal, safe and free abortion, which was launched in 2005, it operates at multiple levels. And it really brings together hundreds of organizations, not just families or women's organizations, but labor unions, political parties, organizations of health professionals, lawyers, people kind of participating independently, human rights groups.
Barbara Sutton:
So, it has been very successful in terms of creating a grass roots strategy operating on multiple levels, like in the schools, in the universities, in institutions of health, through the arts. And also advocating for a very expansive definition of this right, legal, safe and free, meaning free of charge.
Barbara Sutton:
Which you know, it's more than just the right to choose, for example. It is also a question of human rights, it's a question of public health, it's a question of social justice. It's bodily rights, and it is a pragmatic issue, like I was saying before. Because even though it is criminalized, abortion is done, and in large numbers.
Sarah O'Carroll:
It sounds like it's also a bit of a class issue as well, because the idea of it being free, well if it is not free, it seems like only a select group of people would be able to have, to be able to pay for an abortion.
Barbara Sutton:
Yes, you know, how it is done is very much crisscrossed by economic situation for the person involved.
Barbara Sutton:
So, the ones who are more likely to risk their lives and health in a clandestine abortion, are women, low-income women, women who are marginalized along multiple forms of vulnerability.
Sarah O'Carroll:
Well, what about Argentina being, Argentina's predominantly a Roman Catholic country correct?
Barbara Sutton:
Yes.
Sarah O'Carroll:
So, how has this fact also complicated the debate about abortion?
Barbara Sutton:
I mean, it has complicated it indeed. And also, let's not forget, there's an Argentine pope which...
Sarah O'Carroll:
Yes.
Barbara Sutton:
Also adds another layer of influence. It hasn't been just the Catholic church, there's evangelical churches also that have been active organizing against abortion rights.
Barbara Sutton:
At the same time, I want to point out that all, the Argentine state gives particular preeminence to the Catholic, the Roman Catholic church. And in this context, is that one of the movements also that has gained momentum, and you know, in this rallying for legal, safe, and free of charge abortion, has been the separation between church and state.
Barbara Sutton:
And, there has been also, you know, a movement in this context, to point out that just because someone is nominally Catholic, that it, you know, that people who are in the rosters of the Catholic church, doesn't mean that they're religious or that they want to be there.
Barbara Sutton:
So, there's been this movement of apostasía or like, a movement to formally renounce to being listed as Catholic.
Sarah O'Carroll:
That's really interesting. Now, I want to hear a bit more about your time there this summer. Maybe some of your take-aways from your time on the streets of Buenos Aires at these protests, and rallies. How did this trip deepen your understanding of the socio-political climate there?
Barbara Sutton:
So, I was there for, in August eighth in the lead up to the senate vote. I hadn't been there in June, which was when, in the lower chamber the, the bill got half approval.
Sarah O'Carroll:
And the ninth was when it was rejected?
Barbara Sutton:
Yeah, so, in both cases there was inclement weather. In both cases, massive numbers of people in the streets.
Barbara Sutton:
I arrived on the eighth, you know maybe at around one, and it was a festival there in terms of the numbers of groups, and the energy, and the body painting, and the art, and the chanting, and the multiple arguments and strategies, performances you know that activists were bringing.
Barbara Sutton:
And there were, you know, speakers who were educating about the issue. There were main stages, as well as like these tents where there had been like all sorts of workshops.
Barbara Sutton:
And, and people were just staying, and started, like as the day progressed, it started raining, it got cold. And you could see people with their umbrellas, just chanting, and just holding the space you know. You really had to want to be there.
Sarah O'Carroll:
Yeah, it also is surprising me how there seems to be a lot of positive energy coming from these, as in there, you know, it wasn't just a lot of people professing their anger and yelling, but people trying to educate.
Barbara Sutton:
Yes, and I think it goes from being like a stigmatized issue, to something that now it can be talked about. That it can be talked about in public spaces. That things that were being silence, that perhaps people did know, perhaps people did have a sister or a friend or someone in their families who had had abortions, and yet this cannot be talked about. Now there's this space.
Barbara Sutton:
And there has been this space also for, for women who had had abortions to say, "I had an abortion".
Barbara Sutton:
Something that was also interesting, you know the symbol of the campaign, this green kerchief, I don't know if you had a chance to see it in the news, but it became ubiquitous. You know, you could see young people like wearing the kerchief in their backpacks, in the subway, on you know, in the hair or in many ways. Or just as part of the actions that activists talked about this green tide, because it looks like a green tide. It's just a very massive presence.
Barbara Sutton:
And, this, you know going back to the question, the issue that I was telling you about, of being stigmatized to something now can be talked about and then...
Sarah O'Carroll:
To something everyone is wearing.
Barbara Sutton:
Yeah.
Sarah O'Carroll:
And showing with pride.
Barbara Sutton:
Exactly!
Sarah O'Carroll:
Well, what might have made a difference in the vote, because it was so close, even a few weeks before the vote, predictions had the law passing, so what do you think changed?
Barbara Sutton:
Well, I mean, it was going to be tough. It was not going to be easy. So, I think in terms of the predictions, they varied, in terms of levels of confidence whether it was going to pass or now. I think what would have made a difference is legislators paying attention to what is happening in their provinces, to the realities and the needs of their constituencies, particularly women.
Barbara Sutton:
It would have made a difference if they had paid attention to this, and not just to the religious convictions or connections to religious faith or institutions.
Sarah O'Carroll:
Well, in 2015 we saw the Ni una menos movement unfold in Argentina, so what does the Me Too, and the Yo Tambien movement look like in Argentina today? And has it made any difference in the fight to legalize abortion, or perhaps any other organizations who are doing work with this issue?
Barbara Sutton:
I think the Ni una menos, which means not one less, referring to women who have been victims of violence and particularly in most extreme familicide.
Barbara Sutton:
This movement has been important, and has been important in terms of also inspiring people, and women in particular, to go out in the streets, and to raise their awareness about questions of violence against women. But, it makes really interesting connections with other forms of institutionalized violence, with economic violence.
Barbara Sutton:
So, it is in this context that there is a link also with abortion, because they are saying there is a violence in the criminalization of abortion. That women who are dying because of these clandestine abortions, this is not a case of benign neglect or, it is, they're blaming the state, us being responsible for this death.
Barbara Sutton:
So, it is a, it's a more expansive definition of violence. You know, the fact that they had, for example, a women's strike, highlights these connections with broader issues that affect women.
Barbara Sutton:
And also, in creating spaces where women's bodies and voices are like visible, in the streets, occupying the space, is a very stark indictment, and contrast to this possibility of women's bodies and voices, you know, for example through the killing of women.
Barbara Sutton:
So, this has been an important movement. It has been also active participant in a lot of the actions that have taken place in the lead up to the vote, on the abortion bill.
Sarah O'Carroll:
Okay, now what would you say is next for the abortions rights movement? Although it seems like the legal loss might have been a big set back, you could also make the case that the fact that the bill went so far is a sign of hope for women in Argentina, and Latin American. So, would you say Argentina is near a tipping point?
Barbara Sutton:
I think that this movement is not going away. That it is, a lot has been gained.
Barbara Sutton:
For example, one of the organizations that has emerged is Lesbians and Feminists for the Decriminalization of Abortion, which is a group that opened a hotline that providing information about how to perform abortions using a pharmaceutical called, misoprostol. Which is available as a medication for other purposes, but that causes uterine contractions. So, it has been used to perform abortions.
Barbara Sutton:
And, another group which is called, Socorristas en Red, it's a network of Socorristas which means first responders, had also been doing accompaniments of people who need to have an abortion.
Barbara Sutton:
So, both in terms of giving the information, and then also providing the accompaniment, it also meant that some of the clandestine abortions have been done in safer conditions.
Barbara Sutton:
So, I didn't want to forget to mention that, because you know, as a movement that has multiple strategies, these also have been as important strategies, you know to, to make rights, like a reality, even in this, in a context constrained by a law that defines these actions as a crime.
Sarah O'Carroll:
Interesting to hear just how much collaboration takes place within these organizations, and how all these different sectors come together for the movement, beyond feminists or abortions rights activists specifically.
Barbara Sutton:
Yes, it has been a very broad based movement. And I think this is also one of the take-aways, like to see how this cause has been taken up by people, and incorporated in their own spaces, and what they know to do.
Barbara Sutton:
So, for example, you have all sorts of collectives emerging. You know, some may seem more obvious perhaps, like for example, like networks of professionals of health, or you know lawyers who are advocating. But there's also poets, there's journalists, there's collectives of actresses who are using the tools they know how to use. For example, to make short videos to document, or to voice a message in support of legalization and decriminalization of abortion.
Barbara Sutton:
So, this also has been something that was interesting to me, to see the diversity of groups. And then also even how art was brought in, you know to be part of the movement, and what added, like, a lot of creative and joyful energy, and sometimes through poignant and moving stories as well.
Barbara Sutton:
But it definitely has brought out all sorts of organizations, and there's a new level of understanding of the issue from multiple perspectives that these groups brought and that enriches the movement.
Sarah O'Carroll:
Now, is your, can you share a little bit about the book you've been writing, and how that might have, how your time in Argentina might have informed your book?
Barbara Sutton:
Yeah so, my book came out this year. So, I had been doing my research earlier, my book is not on abortion per se, it's called, Surviving State Terror: Women's Testimonies of Repression and Resistance in Argentina.
Barbara Sutton:
And it is about, you know the period of state terrorism and dictatorship in Argentina, and the testimonies of women who had been taken to clandestine detention centers where people were being disappeared, tortured. And women experienced specific forms of sexual violence, and torture. And some of the torments that their experience have to do with some of the issues that we're talking about in terms of violence against women for example.
Barbara Sutton:
You know, women who were pregnant were tortured. Their children stolen, and there were also cases of forced abortions. So, it is, in this context that I also make connections with the question of abortion today, in the sense of the heavy weight that the notion of clandestinity has in my country of origin, Argentina.
Sarah O'Carroll:
Very neat. Barbara, thank you so much for sharing your work with us.
Barbara Sutton:
Thank you.
Sarah O'Carroll:
Thank you for listening to the UAlbany News Podcast. I'm your host, Sarah O'Carroll, and that was Barbara Sutton, an Associate Professor in New Albany's Department of Women's, Gender, and Sexuality Studies.
Sarah O'Carroll:
You can let us know what you thought of the episode by emailing us at mediarelations@albany.edu, and you can find us on Twitter at UAlbanyNews.